Dental Practice Heroes
Where dentists learn how to cut clinical days while increasing profits - without sacrificing patient care, cutting corners, or cranking volume. We teach you how to grow a scalable practice through communication, leadership, and effective management.
Hosted by Dr. Paul Etchison, author of two books on dental practice management, dental coach, and owner of a $6M collections group practice in the south suburbs of Chicago, we provide actionable advice for practice owners who want to intentionally create more time to enjoy their families, wealth, and deep personal fulfillment.
If you want to build a scalable practice framework that no longer stresses, drains, or relies on you for every little thing, we will teach you how and share stories of other dentists who have done it!
Dental Practice Heroes
Partnership Models for Associates and Group's with David Cohen
Associates leaving. Loss of control. Loss of profits. These fears may be holding you back from exploring partnerships in your practice, but the right approach can turn partnerships into a win-win.
In this episode, dental law attorney David Cohen breaks down partnership models and strategies to protect both the practice owner and the associate. From finding the right person to structuring agreements, you’ll learn how to avoid common pitfalls and create partnerships that benefit everyone. Tune in now for all this and more!
Topics discussed in this episode:
- New and traditional partnership models
- Navigating partnership discussions
- How to assess potential partners
- Entity structures and junior partnership contracts
- Potential pitfalls in partnerships and how to avoid them
- Financial considerations and managing capital gains
Reach out to David Cohen to discuss options here.
David's Email: david@cohenlawfirmpllc.com
Text us your feedback! (please note: we cannot respond through this channel))
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Are you thinking about making an associate a partner, but you're worried about the risks. Do you even know what partnership models are available? With the right strategy, you can protect your profits and set up a partnership that works for everyone. That's why today, we're speaking with dental practice attorney David Cohen about what works, what doesn't and how to avoid the common pitfalls in partnerships. By the end of this episode, you'll have the tools you need to find the right partner for your practice, plan your future and handle any challenges that come your way.
Speaker 1:You are listening to Dental Practice Heroes, where we help you create and scale your dental practice so that you are no longer tied to the chair. I'm Dr Paul Etcheson, author of two books on dental practice management, dental coach and owner of a $6 million group practice in the suburbs of Chicago. I want to teach you how to grow and systematize your dental practice so you can spend less time practicing and more time enjoying a life that you love. Let's get started. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to Dental Practice Heroes.
Speaker 1:I am your host, dr Paul Edgerton, very excited for a conversation that we are about to have here, because I think this is going to be such a useful conversation for so many dental owners. I've got a dental practice attorney, dental specific. This is the person that I've used in my two transactions my two transactions. His firm does over 300 dental transitions a year, whether that's private to private people selling their practices or selling them to DSOs or just arranging partnership entities, all that stuff. So that's a whole lot of transactions, but you know what, he's very well versed in this. I've loved working with him. Welcome to the podcast, david Cohen. What's happening, david? How you doing man?
Speaker 2:Doing great. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to chat with you today. Obviously, we've worked together and now it'll be fun to talk back and forth and chop ideas back and forth and also just talk about what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely man, Because I think it's such a vague area in the dental industry is partnerships, and there's one of these things about, you know, many of my listeners we're all growing, you know, to some extent an associate driven practice is what we want to get to, and one of the scary parts about being a dental practice owner is the more associates you have, the more risk there is that one of them's going to leave to go start their own practice. So one of the things that I always tell people to do is, like you can explore ownership, but there's a certain way to do it so that you don't lose all of your profits for all your hard work. So my first question would be talk to me about what are the different ways that you see dental owners setting up these partnerships, and if you've got any pros and cons for the either ones, I'd love to hear those too.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 2:So the traditional way that we would see doctors set up partnerships would be they bring in associates. The associate would work in the practice for anywhere between six months to two years, typically, while the doctor gets a feel for how they produce, how they interact with staff and with patients and whether the personalities align, and then would offer them an opportunity to buy in and then over time buy that doctor out. It's like senior doctor, junior doctor model, where it's kind of the transition plan for the senior doctor and then it also provides the junior doctor the opportunity to take over the practice and then potentially bring in a replacement doctor and then kind of go through that cycle again where that replacement doctor over time buys up and buys that doctor out. That's sort of the traditional, what we are accustomed to, having seen for many years. There's really a new style as well that we're seeing and that we're coming up with because we get a lot of doctors that ask us for creative solutions, and that is having doctors buy in. I will also say that the junior doctor buy-in is typically anywhere from as much as 50% to 25% to a third of the practice. So that's a substantial amount of equity that the doctor is selling really even in the first tranche of deals. So the other model that we're seeing and helping doctors with is a lesser percentage buy-in, which is anywhere, I would say, between 5% to 15% to 20%, even maybe up to 25%, and that is a buy-in that really satisfies all parties because, first and foremost, it protects the parties.
Speaker 2:The doctor, just like you said, is worried about the risk of having a lot of associates and having somebody leave. And you put all the time and effort into teaching them what you're doing, and not just what you're doing from a clinical standpoint, but also from a practice standpoint, how you're managing things and introducing them to staff and how we build community, build goodwill in the community. And then they're gone and it's just, it's a huge blow because not only do you lose all that time and effort and money that you put forth to get them up to speed in a practice, but also you now have to go back to the well and find somebody else and start that all over again. So, aside from just the headaches, time's, money and going back to the well, it can really delay the process. So I know that doctors out there want to be protected and, conversely, what's really interesting about this.
Speaker 2:Doctors out there want to be protected and, conversely, what's really interesting about this is associates also want to be protected. It's funny because, depending on what podcast I'm on or what conference I'm at or who I'm talking to, I'll get the associate side of the story where they'll say, hey, we're tired of having these associateships and being promised partnership and they never do it. And then I end up leaving because they never let me buy in or they terminated me. And then you've got the other side of it, which is I just had two associates and they were supposed to buy in and they left me. So how do you bridge that gap? And I think that's what this model is all about, because when a doctor can buy in at smaller percentages, it's more manageable for them, particularly when they're young, and it also allows the senior doctor to maintain control over the practice, which is really important to them because they're the ones that have been running it for all these years, and it gives them the opportunity to maintain control and also majority share of the equity. The way that we typically see this done is we will still see the six-month to a year period, maybe a little bit less long as we do from the traditional method that we just talked about, and this is really predicated mostly on the personality and also how the doctor is producing, and then we'll have them through that process.
Speaker 2:They often can put some monies that they're earning along the way toward equity in an escrow account and then if they leave, they lose the money and that keeps them having skin in the game. And then, if they're smart, they'll also ask the doctor to put up some money in the escrow account where, if the doctor terminates them voluntarily, they would get the money. And it also account where, if the doctor terminates them voluntarily, they would get the money. And it also allows that junior doctor the opportunity to really just cut down the purchase price that they're going to be paying, because they get to credit the amounts that they're paying to the purchase price. So that's a unique way that we're seeing can be helpful, and you can have any variation of that. You can have a deposit put up. It doesn't have to be monies coming out through escrow.
Speaker 2:There's different ways to do this, but the important thing is, if doctors these days are afraid of associates leaving them and if associates are afraid of doctors not following through and letting them buy in, then let's find a way to keep the parties accountable, and doing that is putting some skin in the game, putting some money up, and those are more in the types of practices where the associate is going to play a significant role, either now or eventually.
Speaker 2:There's also another model where it's multi-location practices. We have doctors that own 10 locations and they just need to make sure that they've got someone that has equity in those locations so they don't leave them, particularly in rural areas where it's really difficult to find a replacement, and that can be a 5% or less type of profit share or equity, and that's a whole different style which is building lots of practices, having associates be there. Your standard of whether the personality fits probably is not as important as them being your practice versus them being in another practice at a very small percentage, just to make sure that they're incentivized to want to be there with equity, as tons of young doctors want now, and then also that you're protected as a doctor. So that was a long explanation, but I would say that those are the two to three main ways that we're seeing these transitions.
Speaker 1:I would say that was a really good explanation, because I think what we fail to realize as owner doctors is that in order for us to scale, we need stability, and when we sell equity, I mean we're giving away a piece of our pie but we're allowing that pie to continue to grow larger.
Speaker 1:Now I want to ask you a question and we don't have to go down this rabbit hole but I just want to hear what your answer is, because there are a lot of associates, possible associates, and they come out of school and for some reason they have this expectation that at the interview, when accepting the job offer, when you can maybe a little further along, that is the point that you start discussing partnership and you haven't even worked together. Do you see that in your experience, that that I mean I feel like a lot of people have that expectation, but I've never personally seen it and I'm just curious from you being on that transition end, are there deals where people are walking in signing up to be an associate and they're talking about buying the practice later on down the line, completely excluding, like old senior doctor who's wishing to transition and that's the reason for the associate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really interesting question and not only do we handle over 300 transitions a year nationwide, but we also handle a lot of associate agreements and absolutely we are finding more and more way more today than ever. I would say that the younger doctors are wanting and frankly I think in many cases expecting to have partnership discussions day one or even before they get in. And the way that I like to coach whether it's associate or whether it's to the senior doctor is partnership is a marriage. There's a lot involved with a partnership. They're not easy to get out of all the time. You can have things you'd never think of, like a lease. If you're leasing the property, you're personally guaranteeing the lease. The landlord isn't going to just let you off because you don't get along with your partner necessarily. So it's hard to untangle. That was just one example of many.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to untangle a lot of things in a partnership and you have to be pretty certain when you go into it. The best way to be certain is to work together and make sure that it's a good fit from all angles, like I said, personality, quality of work, ability to produce, how you get along with all the staff, etc. So I think the only way to know that is to go in and trust the process. Now I say trust the process because I don't think there's anything wrong with it and I actually think it's healthy to have a conversation, day one, that says what are your goals? Are you open to ownership down the road, let's say the associate doctor? That's a fair question, because if you ultimately want to be an owner and the senior doctor does not want to partner ever, then that may not be the best opportunity for you, unless you're willing to just say, hey, I'll come in and get experience and then I'll go find something else, assuming everyone's cool with that. But I think it's important to have that conversation up front. And then, obviously, conversely, if you're the senior doctor, you need a transition plan and you want to bring a doctor in. You want to make sure that they're of desire to partner someday. So I think that general conversation is important from the beginning if partnership is important to either side. But I personally would leave it at that. The model that I mentioned sort of builds in the opportunity to sure you're putting skin in the game and equity up, and you could even start that six months in if you want to. You don't have to start that right away, but it gives everybody the opportunity to dip their toes in, make sure that it's a good fit and then they can proceed.
Speaker 2:And I think that it's totally premature for any doctor to come into practice expecting that there'll be promised ownership. And I actually see a lot of younger doctors go in, expect to be promised ownership, they want a guarantee, but then they don't. Both sides doesn't work for them, where, like if the senior doctor says to them okay, well, I'll promise you, but you got to promise me you're going to buy in, and it's like, oh whoa, well, I don't know. I mean, I haven't been in this practice yet, I don't know, you know and then it's like, well, that's not equitable situation. So I think it's really important, in my opinion, that if you're the younger doctor, you don't know that you want to buy into the practice because you haven't set foot in there. You don't know if it's a good fit for you. And, conversely, if you're the older doctor and I say older and younger, I the ages could be different, but just in the traditional sense you know the established doctor who's already there could say the same thing.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know that this is going to work, why I can't promise you something day one. Yeah, I mean, and this is the thing is, every time I hire an associate, I always ask them like what is your like goals for, like ownership, owning your own place or like owning any practice? And it's always like I feel like they always respond in like this is an interview question, what am I supposed to say? And I always follow up with hey, if you want to own something on your own, you want to own, like buy into this someday, whatever. I'm just trying to open a conversation because I want to be straightforward with you and it's always worked really well for me.
Speaker 1:For instance, I have an associate right now. I would love if he would buy into the practice, and he's always been very upfront that he wants to own a practice one day. He's not sure if he would like to buy in this one. When we talked about him buying in, I personally just don't have enough equity left to make him happy, so it's not a good fit. But if I had enough equity to sell him, he would stay. But he wants to own a bigger thing, he wants a bigger chunk. So he's going and he's opening up his own practice. He's very transparent about it, we know about it, I'm helping him and that comes from having that communication.
Speaker 1:So if a doctor is listening right now and they're saying I really like my associate, or I didn't even know like this was even a possibility, I kind of like the idea of having an associate and possibly I don't want to use the words locking them in because I feel like that sounds like forceful. But you know, like I don't have to deal with this, the risk of having associates leave and like then I'm working all the hours At what point would you recommend a doctor starts exploring these possibilities and starts having these conversations? Because I think a lot of us just put it off. We don't have the conversation because we're so worried we're going to say something wrong and we're going to set ourselves up where we lose the transaction. And I think most of these are win-win on both sides if you communicate. But at what point is it time for the doctor to start exploring what this might look like from a legal standpoint and starting that conversation with their associate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the first thing is it's really important to just get an understanding between each other of whether or not both sides are open to partnership. Obviously, if you are the established doctor and you think it's a great fit with the associate, then I think the right timing is as follows the number one reason why partnerships fail, in my personal opinion and from what I've seen, is personality. So you have to give enough of a runway with working together in the practice to really be able to feel comfortable from a personality standpoint. And for some people that can be a very short period and for some people that can take longer. I also think personality testing, while not 100% accurate, is over 80% accurate statistically and for some people that can take longer. I also think personality testing, while not 100% accurate, is over 80% accurate statistically and it costs a few grand, but it's really, I think, helpful and can make a really big difference for parties. So that's also something and that can kind of help expedite too. If you're in a hurry as a doctor, you could also add that component if you want to, but otherwise for every doctor that's different, but once you feel from a personality standpoint that it works, then I think it comes down to having a long enough period of time to see how the doctor produces and how they interact with others.
Speaker 2:You know, personality is kind of part of how they interact with others, so you can kind of lump that into one. But then how do they produce? And is that going to work? And I think, to see that, I think you really need at least six to 12 months, because a lot of times doctors come into the practice and it takes a few months to just kind of get acclimated and really start to move. So I think you really got to give at least six to 12 months and see how the doctor produces Ideally 12.
Speaker 2:At least six to 12 months and see how the doctor produces Ideally 12 months, I would say.
Speaker 2:And then you can decide okay, well, I like the personality this doctor produces at a level that I'm comfortable with, and so let's start having a conversation about buy-in, and then usually, that buy-in would be based on typically based on the level that that doctor produces at as a ratio compared to all the other doctors in the practice. The other approach, though, if you're doing it, where the doctor has a very small amount of equity because they're, for instance, running up one of your 10 locations or something that I think is more about. That buy-in isn't typically based on their production. I think it's based on evaluation of the practice and then you decide with your advisors what percentage you feel is appropriate. So I'm giving you the lawyer answer, which is it depends. But I think those are the two things that you, as a doctor, have to nail down. Is it's all you doctors out there is personality, however long that takes, and again, personality testing can help expedite and seeing their production in the practice.
Speaker 1:I feel like I would just be so sad if, like, I had this associate and I really liked him and then we did this and it's like you guys are incompatible and it's like Romeo and Juliet. We're like why? Why can't we be together? It felt so right. Talk about, like there's this entity. No, we're talking about junior partnerships. So we're talking about like, maybe someone, maybe with multiple locations, selling a larger chunk of equity in a certain location to keep a doctor sticky there, or you have one location and you're selling smaller pieces of equity to doctors so that they don't leave because you know they're a good fit for your organization. At what point does it make sense to do? A lot of people have heard this entity structure where you break the practice into a management entity and then also into a clinical entity. When is that appropriate?
Speaker 2:So that's really what that is a DSO model.
Speaker 2:And the DSO model is done because, most of the time, the owners of the DSO are not licensed doctors and they can't own the professional clinical practice doctors and they can't own the professional clinical practice.
Speaker 2:So, as a result, they set up a management company and they provide bona fide management services to the practice in exchange for fees and that's how they can benefit financially from the practice. For doctors it doesn't make as much sense if they're licensed, except for when they have multiple locations or even one location but they have other associates that are not owners of the practice. Because obviously, if you're a doctor and you're the sole owner of all the practices and you're just paying fees to yourself I don't want to speak for how from a tax standpoint that works and there's that element but just from a logical standpoint it doesn't make a lot of sense. So if you are a doctor that owns a practice with other owners of the practice and they are not going to also be owners of the management company, that is when you could benefit financially from having a management company, because then you're charging fees to the practice for bona fide non-clinical services and you're not sharing those fees with anybody and the cost is shared with the other partners.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So what about these junior partnerships? We're selling somebody 5%, maybe 10%, maybe 15%. What have you seen as far as things that are baked into the contract to keep both parties safe? Is there a production? If you don't hit this production per year, you can't take any time off. What kind of other stipulations have you seen baked into contracts so that they're fair on both sides?
Speaker 2:Are you speaking more specifically to? So you're saying, if a junior doctor buys into a practice and maybe they're a 5% owner or 10% owner, how, as an established doctor, do you get them to be accountable in the practice?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess I'm just curious at what point, like when I had my junior partner come on, it was like, hey, there can't be two cooks in the kitchen. I am 100% confident that I will continue to manage this practice. I've demonstrated I can. I need you to do nothing other than just be a solid leader while you're here. Are you comfortable with that?
Speaker 1:Then, later on down the line, she started wanting to get into the management a little bit more and we had to go back and be like, hey, like, and this was nothing in the contract. And we I mean we settled this in a conversation. This never went where we had to get contracts out or anything. But I'm just wondering where I see partners go. Bad is. Somebody buys into a practice and then the owner doc that sold a little bit of equity is expecting that person to do some ownership duties and some management duties, and then they're let down because they don't feel like you know they're not pulling their weight. So are there things that can be baked into the contract that says, you know, so that the partners can get along and there isn't expectations that are not met, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I think there are, and I think it really comes down to what the priority is for the doctor. So in your case the priority was them being a good leader right. For somebody else it could be that they need to make sure that whoever is coming in grows the practice and brings in lots of patients right. So it can be different for everybody and you have to structure the legal language around what the issue or what the potential issue is to try to close the loop on it. And I think that it's really going to be specific to the issue at play. But I absolutely think you can put in parameters Like, for instance, if it's about bringing in business and bringing in patients, then what is a reasonable threshold to do that? And you work with your team on looking at your numbers and what seems reasonable and that is the goal. And it can be something as nuclear as saying I get to buy your ownership back if you're not producing, bringing in patients, that level. Or it could be something different of hey, we'll stay together, but as the established doctor gets more of a percentage of the profits for a certain period of time until that doctor then gets there. There's so many different ways you can do this, but absolutely, the answer is yes, and I think it's about talking to your advisors about it.
Speaker 2:The one thing that I will say also, though, is it is quite common to have I mean, the best partnership agreements are those that people sign and they never have to pick up again. Right, but it happens Sometimes you have to pick them up again, which is why you have the agreement, and I think your scenario is not uncommon, and that is, you have an agreement in an agreement and the parties aren't performing in accordance with the agreement, and you have to have a conversation, you address that with them directly, and they say, yes, I'm accountable, absolutely. Here's the logic of why this happened, but going forward, this is going to be different, and then, boom, they change and it is different. Well, that's one of those things where now you know this is that type of person versus someone who's not accountable and says, well, I am doing that right, or makes an excuse, or whatever it is. Then that's going to be tough right, and you want to learn that before they're a partner for sure.
Speaker 1:So that's again goes back to personality. Well, it makes sense, because I'm thinking about when we have our patients sign the thing that says this is just an insurance estimate. We can't promise this is going to be right. And then they come back and they get all upset that it wasn't right. And just because they signed the paper doesn't mean you show them the paper and that argument's over, because it's not, because they're still pissed off and you're still pissed off. So it's interesting. I love that you brought that up, because the partnership agreement doesn't mean anything until you've got to start pulling it out and start sorting this out legally. I mean most of these. You're going to handle these things verbally with communication. Can you think of any recent ones that you've dealt with I mean without sharing anything confidential, but of partnerships that went bad and why you think they did?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the good news is most of the partnerships that we work with do well and don't have problems, and I think it's because the doctors that we work with typically do it the right way, so to speak, and they vet the partner out appropriately. But you're not going to hit a home run every time. But really for the most part, the doctors that really vet these associates before they become partner are mostly successful and so. But we do see some partnerships that don't work. Bringing in the business is really important and that kind of leads to production, because oftentimes in partnership agreements the doctor that brings in the business typically gets to treat that patient.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean we see that all the time where doctors are not happy with they have certain percentages, yet somebody's not pulling their weight right and the way to combat that is just splitting the money based on your production or based on the business you bring in. But that's not that healthy, just like splitting everything equally isn't healthy either. There usually has to be some sort of a hybrid and that still can hurt for a doctor that feels like they're producing and other doctors are doing the bare minimum. So we see that a lot. We also see everything from that to like a family member.
Speaker 2:That's in the practice, maybe a spouse who's the office manager and one of the partners doesn't like that spouse and that's a really tough because even if the doctor that has that as their spouse understands, that's a tough discussion for them. So I mean that can get really tricky as well. I mean we're seeing stuff like that to just your normal bread and butter of hey, we're just we're not producing, you're not producing like or bringing in the business that I thought you would right, and then everything comes into question which is okay. Well, you were doing this yesterday. You played golf Like couldn't you have been out, like marketing the practice, and then you start getting into questioning stuff like that and that's where it just unravels, you know, and that's where that trust and compatibility really kind of comes into play.
Speaker 1:Before you get into it, yeah, that's so true and it almost reminds me of like in college I lived in a house with like eight guys and the one guy's girlfriend was there all the time. And you know, like, looking back on it, I'm like why was that such a big deal? But it was such a big deal to everybody because nobody liked his girlfriend and she was like, I mean, she wasn't nice and it was like, why is she always here? Right, but then it's an uncomfortable conversation that gets pushed down. It doesn't get had until things blow up and by that time it's like, damn, what the heck happened.
Speaker 1:And how do we let it get this far? And I would imagine it's the same with a partnership is that you start getting resentment and you don't talk about it. So then it gets to the point that it gets so bad that sometimes you got to whip out some legal papers and dissolve it, which, like you mentioned, would be a complete mess. The last thing I want to talk to you about, dave, is that you do all these transitions and if a doctor is listening to this and you say, man, I think I do want to sell some equity to an associate that is going to generate some capital gains and I want to take a kind of left turn here Talk about what you do as well to help doctors with their capital gains, in mitigating that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so the first thing that I'll say is I'm not a CPA, I'm not a tax professional, but what I will say is that we, over the years doing so many transactions, we have a lot of sellers, and the sellers come to us asking two things Number one, how can I address this from a tax standpoint? And number two, how, if I have money that I can invest, what are some things that I can do with this? And so you know, for a while, we always do defer to the CPA from a tax standpoint, but if we can be helpful along the way with that CPA and work as a team, then we want to do that, and so my partner, liam, and I created a Qualified Opportunity Zone fund in Miami, and we have land in the Arts and Entertainment District in Miami, in Miami, and we have land in the arts and entertainment district in Miami, and that is one of the best areas in all of Miami and is very upcoming. But it isn't in a qualified opportunity zone, and a qualified opportunity zone is an area of the country that the government has decided they'll provide benefits to those who invest in because they want to build the community, because the census of these communities came out in 2010,. There are communities now that in 2010 were not, and so taking advantage of those communities is really, I think, key. And so because we know Miami so well and I have a commercial real estate law firm that's based out of Miami as well we really know the market and we know how everything works in Miami, and so can we provide a solution for people.
Speaker 2:So we have this Qualified Opportunity Zone Fund, where if a doctor or anybody invests, that has taxable gain and taxable gain could be anything from selling interest to associates, it could be from selling stock really anything that provides taxable gain, although it's typically from selling interest in a practice you can defer that gain for a couple of years. There's no depreciation recapture For our project. It's ground up multifamily, so there's going to be depreciation taken. There's no recapture on that, and that's also a really big deal. And then at the end of a 10-year hold period, there's no tax, there's no gain paid at all on the asset itself, the real estate that you're investing in.
Speaker 2:So in our case, ground up multifamily luxury rental apartments. So it's just a really cool area, just having been in the dental industry for so long. There's all these different opportunities and things you can try to solve and for us, solving for our clients not just their legal problems, but also giving them an opportunity from an investment standpoint and also working with their tax advisors, who are the quarterbacks to talk about. This opportunity has been really successful for us, and so we're really excited about it and we think it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what I think? What I want the listeners to hear is that this stuff is not as scary as it should be if you've got people in your corner that know what they're doing. So all you got to do is just have the conversations, see what's possible, start working things out. It's not as big as they should think it is. So if the listeners are listening, they want to get in touch with you. What's the best way to do that?
Speaker 2:There are two great ways. One of the things about our firm is that we're incredibly responsive in really any way. So call is great, my cell phone's 206-919-9060. And texting as well is good for me. And then email is also equally great. It's david at coLawFirmPLLCcom. So David at C-O-H-E-N Law Firm P-L-L-Ccom.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I will put that in the show notes and, just for any listeners thinking about it, just have the conversation. This is somebody I've worked with twice and I will legally say that I am not being sponsored or compensated in any way for saying it. I am giving an honest, you know just endorsement of David here. He's a great dude. He has been great to work with. So, man, thanks for coming on and just dropping all the knowledge and talking about the possibilities. I thank you for all that you've done for me personally and thanks for your time today on the podcast. I think that was really helpful to a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks so much for giving me the time. I always enjoyed talking to you and it's really cool to do it in this setting, and I know you've got an incredibly successful podcast, so I feel honored to be on it and looking forward to hearing it.
