Your Team Doesn't Want More Money (They Want This) with Bree Groff

The best practices aren't built on systems and numbers — they're built on something that's easy to forget.

In this episode, Bree Groff breaks down why people are the backbone of a practice and how leaders can bring out their team's best. Working with teams at Google, Microsoft, and Pfizer, she's developed simple exercises and team practices that  drive performance and bring fun to any size practice.

Topics discussed:

• The "performative exhaustion" trap
• What people need more than a paycheck
• The most underrated leadership role
• How to make work fun and show that you care
• Two simple tools that help teams connect
• Should you be friends with the people you lead?

This episode was produced by Podcast Boutique https://www.podcastboutique.com

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Transcript

Good Job Versus Good Day

Paul Etchison 0:01

There's a difference between having a good job and having a good day at work. And I think in dentistry, we often forget that. We spend so much time trying to make the practice more efficient, more productive, more profitable, more systematized, that sometimes we forget that there are actual human beings showing up every day to make this practice run. And those people, they're not just looking for a paycheck. They want to feel seen, they want to feel like the work matters. They want to enjoy the people that they're spending all these days with. And honestly, as owners, so do we. Because let's face it, if the practice is producing, but the culture just feels flat, something is just missing. So today I am joined by Bree Groff, the author of Today Was Fun, a book about work. Seriously. Bree has worked with organizations like Google, Microsoft, Pfizer, Hilton, Target, and many others helping leaders create workplaces where people perform at a high level without sacrificing their humanity along the way. We're going to be talking about why leaders need to call the wins, how to make employees feel seen, and why the relationships matter than most practice owners realize. And also about how creating a little more fun at work can really dramatically improve the culture, the engagement, and the performance of our teams. So this is going to be one you're not going to want to miss. Now, you are listening to the Dental Practice Heroes podcast, where we help dentists build stronger teams, better systems, and more profitable practices without creating a life that they need a vacation from. I'm your host, Dr. Paul Edison. I'm a practicing dentist, two-time author, dental coach, and the owner of a multi-doctor practice in the south suburbs of Chicago. And a huge part of what I teach is that the best practices are not just built on systems and numbers. They're built on teams that care, leaders who pay attention, and cultures where people actually want to show up and do the great work. All right, let's dive into this interview. I know you're gonna love it. So, you know,

Stop Rewarding Exhaustion

Paul Etchison 2:00

I really, really liked your book. And I reached out to Bree and I said, Bree, I really like your book. I would love to interview on my podcast just to get some. You guys know from listening to this, I love reading books. I just I read like two books a week. I'm a big dork, but I love the information I get from it and how we can apply it to our dental practices. Now, I want to relate this to dentistry. And one thing you said in your book that I thought was really powerful was just that people don't get paid to do work because it's painful and it sucks. And with they don't like it, people get paid to create value. Why do you think that mindset shift is important for dental practice owners?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, I mean, I think it's very common to believe that you're doing work right if it's hard, arduous, painful. And that's what success feels like, right? It almost feels like if it's easy and fun, there must be something wrong. Are you not pushing yourself as hard as you can? Are you not taking feedback from people? But I think it's important to note that just as you said, your patients are paying. They're coming to you because you provide value. They don't care if you're having a good day or a bad day. They'd much prefer you're having a good day. So if you're running around stressed and overworked and feeling exhausted, that does nothing really for the patient. In fact, maybe it makes them a little nervous that they're someone working on their mouth is overwhelmed. And what it opens up is the possibility that you can be both successful and happy, right? Because otherwise, this notion of performative exhaustion, that if it looks like I'm struggling, that must mean success. That mindset guarantees that you are happy or successful, but never both. And it's not a way to run a business.

Paul Etchison 3:54

How can we just transfer that into our employees so that they understand? I mean, to have more purpose, more reason, more mattering when they show up at work, other than just collecting a paycheck.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Well, I, you know, I actually think of all the industries, you have a bit of an advantage. There are so many organizations I work with where your mid-level marketing manager doesn't ever see a customer in their career, right? Like they're pushing out something that goes to someone else, that goes to someone else. You're actually in the quite lovely position to help someone see immediately that they feel, well, maybe immediately they're in a little bit of pain. I don't know. But immediately that they are thankful or that you have helped relieve some pain or helped set them on a healthier trajectory. In your case, I'd say if your employees are not feeling that sense of meaning and purpose, maybe it's just worth dwelling on a little bit, which could look anything like maybe you have a weekly team meeting and everyone shares three wins. So, you know, my patient earlier this week, actually, I don't know if this is at my dentist, they do this number system where they're like a four, a three, a two. Do you do this? Okay.

Paul Etchison 5:07

Yes. Yeah. One through 32.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Okay. Yeah. I remember the first time I had no fours. I was like, yes.

Paul Etchison 5:14

Oh, okay. You're talking about measuring your gums. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah, that's what it is. Okay.

Paul Etchison 5:18

We call them probings, which is probably not the best word for them, but they're called probings.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

That could go many directions. Um but anyway, yes. So I remember the first time I didn't have any fours. My gums were healthier. I was so excited, right? And so, you know, I told the person measuring, like, oh, I've been waiting for this time. I've been doing such a good job. You know, maybe at your weekly team meeting, everyone runs around and says, like, what are, or maybe one or two wins from the week. Oh, Brie had no fours on her dental probing. Oh, like so-and-so, whatever. We got the sealance on for their kid and they're super happy. Sometimes it just, you just have to revel it. And businesses are usually run on efficiency, and efficiency and reveling don't normally sound like uh they belong in the same sentence. But taking that time to appreciate just how much good work you do can go a long way.

Paul Etchison 6:14

So this kind of reminds me of something that you mentioned in your book that I really liked, and was where you mentioned that leaders need to be the person that calls the win. And in your book, you mentioned, I think you've just said mentioned the example of after a meeting saying, guys, we just haven't killed that meeting and how we

Create Meaning By Calling Wins

Paul Etchison 6:30

do so much great things together with our teams, but sometimes no one acknowledges it. And if we're not going to acknowledge it as the leader of the group, as the leader of the organization, who is going to? To me, this speaks to like a deeper sense of just the leadership talking, speaking about just expectations or just bringing things to light. Talk about this, like calling the win, because that's what it sounds like to me is like we're reveling in that situation. We're acknowledging when we really help somebody. And thankfully, in our industry, the bar is set super low in dentistry. Everybody has bad dental experiences. I guess how do we get ourselves more comfortable and to see the value that that brings to our team?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah, you know, one of the most underrated roles as a leader is being the team narrator. You sort of have to create the story of how things are going at your organization. Everybody's going to have their own versions, of course, right? Like you know as an employee whether you had a good day or a bad day. But it helps enormously if the team as a whole has the same sort of perception of how are we doing. So, and this goes for good times and bad. So the call the win is for good times, right? Like we pulled off some crazy procedure that was sort of risky, but we decided to do it after that. You have to call the win. Like, team, that was awesome. Like you as a leader might be feeling kind of exhausted. Maybe you like you know it was a win, but you know, on to the next thing. But if you're more junior in an organization, you're looking to the leader to say, like, did we do a good job or not? Because a lot of times people don't know, right? And and you, especially when there's a win, that is just like the lowest hanging fruit. And like there is positivity there that you are just not taking advantage of. Then on the flip side, I don't know, maybe business isn't going well. Maybe you're losing patience. You also need to narrate that as a leader. Because people are gonna be wondering, well, why is this happening? And what are we doing to change it? The more that you can be that voiceover to say, yes, I know we're losing patience. I think it's because X, Y, and Z. It's on my mind. And here's A, B, and C things that we're doing to address it. And in six months' time, we're gonna sit down together and look at things. It just gives people a sense that there is that. I say narrator because that's sort of like omniscient. I'm in control of the story, even if you're not in control, but like I see the bigger story that gives employees such a sense of being cared for, of being seen.

Paul Etchison 9:08

Yeah, it reminds me of a situation in my own personal experience where I mean, coming after COVID, we had a great organization, we like 35 employees, and grew it and no turnover for the longest time. Like, no, like bad turnover where somebody went to another office. Like, but that's what I say, bad turnover. People move away, people go to school, stuff like that. Then we got killed after COVID, and when everything was changing and there was just a lot of things going on in the dental industry. And I remember saying to my team, standing up and saying, Hey, like, I know we are short-staffed at the front. I see how hard you guys are working. I am so worried that you guys are gonna get burnt out in one person, another person's gonna leave and make it so much harder. We're looking, we're doing our best. Please just hang in there with me. And I remember somebody at my front does like talking to me and say, that was just so powerful for me to hear from you that you're worried about things like this. And I share this with my clients often as I say, hey, share how you feel. Like there's something to be said about authenticity and work that I think we're so detached from. And I don't know if it comes from like boomer parents or what it what who did it to us. Like, why is it so easy just to try to keep everything professional and not just be our real selves when we show up?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, I think part of the reason is historical, and then part of the reason is human. Before I dive into both, let me just say that was such an awesome thing that you did. I think that's it was exactly the right move in that situation. Historical, because for the longest time, really, we thought of leadership as powerful, show no fear, confidence. You have to portray confidence, even when people can look around and be like, oh, I don't think we should be confident. Right. But that's sort of like the archetype of the strong leader. And then, of course, people like Brene Brown and other thought leaders have done a lot to sort of counteract that narrative towards vulnerability, authenticity. So there's that, you know, it's just it's been in the zeitgeist for a long time. And then personally, I think leaders feel it can feel sometimes like one, it could be like a fake it till we make it thing. If I just smile and pretend everything is okay, maybe I'm also reassuring myself. There can be a worry that if I show doubt or uncertainty, that my people will start to lose faith. When in fact, it's just the reverse, because no one's hiding anything. You know, I mean, it's like the people at your front desk, like they knew they were short staffed. You know, by you saying, like, oh, everything's going great, you know, you're just sort of denying their reality. And that's not helpful by simply acknowledging, I know things are rough. Here's what I'm worried about. In the very, even in a tough situation, in the very least, people are like, oh, thank God I'm seen. That's really what people want more than anything else. I am seen, I make sense, I am understood. That's just the baseline for getting on with growing or changing or improving. If you don't first feel that, then there's a real gulf between you and leadership. And then you start to get the things like people have a little grapevine and they're whispering and they don't get it. And it's just the last thing you want. So I say, when in doubt, try some vulnerability and whatever amount feels safe. And 99 times out of a hundred, it will be rewarded with a sigh of relief. Ah, you see me. One time out of a hundred, people might be like, oh no, they're worried. And then you can say, like, yeah, I am. And here are the things I'm gonna do about it.

Paul Etchison 12:33

Yeah. I mean, it it comes down to almost like validating someone's experience, which I think is totally deeply on some deep human level. That's what we all need. Would you comment on what you've seen change in this whole perspective, the employee-employer relationship and how we should approach it as a strong leader that wants to get people engaged?

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah. So there's definitely some market dynamics. Totally echo the like 2008, like, thank God, you know, everything has gone up in flames. I'm glad I have a job. All the way to the 2020 great resignation that happened around COVID, where everyone's like, F this, I'm out, you know. And power was really in employees' hands then. Now I'm sad to say it does feel like it's it's shifting back, especially in an age of AI where there's so much uncertainty about roles. And so now what I hear a lot is like, now there's there's a fancy term for it, someone coined. Instead of great

Lead As Narrator With Vulnerability

SPEAKER_00 13:30

resignation, it's like the great twiddling your thumbs. That's not it. But it's like the that's the idea that when people are worried about a job market, they're not leaving their jobs. They're just like sitting tight, hoping not to get fired, which is really not what you want from employees. So no matter what's happening with the job market, I think there's only one right answer, which is to really care about your employees, value them and show them that. And for so many different reasons. One, because the uh market for top talent is always hot. Even if the employment rate ebbs and flows, like your super high performers are gonna have options. Two, because this is the argument I hate to make, but it's like, yes, all the research shows like employee engagement, drives performance, and like that's all true and important. But mostly just think if you're gonna be spending your days, your finite days on the planet with these people, most days of the week, it's just nice to care about them, like to care about whether they're having good days. And then conversely, they're gonna care whether you're having a good day. Like it's there's so much that's just very simply human about you know when we think about the employee experience or making a role for people, because really they're like they're devoting a large part of their life and the sum of their professional expertise to your organization. And we always talk about, you know, customers are important because they bring the money, but you know, they're bringing a share of wallet. You see them, I don't know, you know, every six months or whatever it is. The employees, like if you can get that right and really show them that you get them, that they're valuable. I mean, that pays dividends again through the bottom line of the organization, but also just through it's nicer to hang around people who are happy. And that's kind of it.

Paul Etchison 15:21

Yeah, it makes me think about I love that. And and this was like the premise of your book of just work being fun, too, is this this plays into this very nicely. Is I'll tell you, my practice has been open for 14 years, and people used to always patients would come in. Oh my God, every time I come in here, I hear so much laughter. And people would say, How did you create such a fun and organization? How did you find so many amazing people? And I really don't think I had this amazing ability to find amazing people. I think it was just if I had to sum it down to one thing, and this is this is gonna take a whole lot of like business and management research and just make it sound just one little thing. But it was meeting with my team one-on-one and asking what was bothering them and truly addressing it and being honest about it. And psychological safety was a big one on me. Yeah. But we never, when I read your book, I was like, fun should be in our core values. And I've sensed that at my organization that some of the fun has gone down. We never tried for it. So talk about like the idea that work should be fun. I mean, we're there. What can we do to make it fun? Because I think a lot of people don't believe it should be. They don't even want it that'd be like, and we did it without even trying. We weren't making being intentional about it, but we were just, we loved our team and we loved what we were doing for people. It was fun. It naturally came. And I don't know what kind of magical things aligned for that, but what advice would you have, I guess, for dental practice owners who say, I don't think this is fun at all? Like I want that, but how do I do it?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Sure. Well, you know, step one is friends make everything in life better, including work. If it's too much to call them friends, that's okay. Friendly relationships with your colleagues make everything in life better. So just exactly where you started. If you know people, it's so much easier to like them. And if you like them, it's just so much easier to have fun. The fun almost takes care of itself. So there's lots of things that you can do that don't take a ton of time, but like your one-on-ones. I would big advocate for one-on-ones on whatever it doesn't have to be weekly, you know, it could be quarterly or whenever it is. But that's important to get to know a person. And again, just to, it's not so much like, hey, did you order those new supplies? That's not a one-on-one. It's like, hey, how are you feeling about showing up here every day? That's a one-on-one. Team meetings, if you can swing them, I don't know, with people coming out and shifts, you'd know, I don't know how this works. Maybe you have a few a week, but maybe I don't know, it could be 20 minutes just to say, like, here's what I'm, you know, seeing for this week. Here's what I'm a little worried about or unsure, but we're gonna figure it out together. And then maybe once around the room, uh like a kind of check-in. So I share this exercise in the book, but yeah, and it takes all of five minutes. Everybody on a scale of one to five, how are you doing today? Let's put it on our hands. Three, two, one, shoot. And you put five or four. And then in 30 seconds each, people say, Oh, I'm a two today. I totally threw my back out. So I'm wearing my back brace today, everybody. That's what that is. You know, I'm a four. It's my birthday this weekend. I'm really excited. But uh, minus one because we've got like such a long day today. It's just a way, a way to share your lived daily experience with others. And now if you do that regularly, now I know so-and-so has a bad back. Now I can say happy birthday to that other person. Those sorts of we're just bearing witness to each other's lives in a very simple way. It just that is the check-in is the highest impact-to-effort ratio tool I've ever used. And then it's a question for the team: what sounds like fun to you? Because fun will look different for different people. But I think if we open up our minds to the idea that work should be fun, then we ask, like, what would make it fun? And that could be anything from let's play, we're gonna rotate being DJ for the reception area music, you know, and we can all comment on whose music is the best. You know, anything like that to maybe learning about a new procedure is super fun in a delightfully nerdy way. Like, we're gonna have procedure club where we're gonna meet once a month and just like learn about the latest technology. I don't know. I'm making this up. But the idea is like just ask what would make this fun and see what you get from people.

Paul Etchison 19:36

I love that. And I love the check-in. And for us in the dental industry, this could be a great, we call morning huddles. Perfect. Often we'll meet 20 minutes before the day, look at any like roadblocks in the day, where to put an emergency patient, what do we need to do, just who needs help at certain times of this day. And I think that's a perfect time for that check-in. I absolutely love that. Talk about your user manual. I loved that. And I've I've actually recommended it to a number of clients.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Oh, amazing. So the user manual is just like your user manual for your blender, except it's for you. How do you operate you, in essence? It's essentially like a guide to like who you are and how you like to work. So literally, it's a one-page document. You can keep it in like a shared Google Doc, or if you have a break room, you could pin people's up on the walls. But a one-page document with a series of questions that people will answer for themselves, share with others, and then you read the answers of others on your team. So some of the questions are more personal, like who are the humans or animals important to you in your life? Side note on that one, sometimes you can work with people for years before realize, like, oh, you have a brother? Like, I've worked with you for five years. It's like some of those things that are just foundational to being a human that we sort of gloss over. Um, so that can be one what are my commitments or joys outside of work? Sometimes it's really important to know. Oh, I'm caregiving for my mother, that you know, I volunteer at this place on these nights. And so that's why I can never work those nights, whatever it is. And then there's questions about your preferences for work. So, like, how do I like to communicate? Uh like, oh, I'm such a fan of text messages. Here's my number if anyone needs me. It could be, how can I be misunderstood? Like, oh, sometimes I get distracted on things that annoys people, but I promise I will come back to the thing I promised you. And then lastly, it's how do you want to be supported by others? Because we all know if we get upset, there are some people who want immediate comfort. Are you okay? Is there anything I can do to help? Let's figure this out together. And there are some people who were like, get out of my space. Like, yeah, I just give me 10 minutes. I need to calm down. Right. And why should we guess who is who? Why can't we just ask people? And so one of the questions is how can others help when you're stressed or overwhelmed? And then you just simply write the answer. You know, like I would love it if you could just bring me a cup of coffee. That would make my day. Or give me 10 minutes and later in the day, send me a message or ask how I'm doing. So this sort of guide, what it does is just accelerates the team gelling process. It's something that happens, you know, over the course of time. You know, you learn these things about people naturally. But also, why wait? Why not just say this is who I am and what I like and what helps, and then learn that from other people. So I have done this for every single consulting project I have led over the last decade plus. It is a 100% success rate activity.

Paul Etchison 22:40

That's excellent. And we've never done this at my own practice, but I've had a number of clients do it and say the same thing that they have absolutely loved it. And I think what your two exercises do is it's making it easy to bring these things out from our team in a situation where sometimes maybe some people are not so comfortable talking about it, asking questions, getting to know people. And it just really speeds up that process. As far as like the relationships go between people at work, and I think there's a big belief that there should be a line drawn. This is home, this is work. Do not have fun, do not go anywhere outside of work with your work people. They're not supposed to be your friends, they're just your work people. How important? I know you work with a lot of large organizations, but dental office, less than 10 people. Yeah. Is it important to spend time outside of work, or is it can that all be effectively done just while at work to have those relationships?

SPEAKER_00 23:31

You know, a lot of this is individual preference. I would never want to tell someone they should want relationships with people they don't want relationships with. I tend to err on the side of like, I don't know, we're hanging out every day. Let's be friends. Even though, I mean, especially in power dynamics, that's where it gets a little bit tricky, right? Like if you're the boss and then you're feeling like, oh, we're friends, but then it's like their performance isn't great, you know. So it's like that's where I understand people have felt burned before and get a little bit wary of things.

Paul Etchison 24:02

But it's kind of dual relationship or just different situations. Right. The power dynamic is different. It is. At work versus outside work, correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

And yet I will say I think being friends is worth the cost. So I have had to fire a friend before that was horrible.

Paul Etchison 24:20

I bet.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

I mean, least of all for me. You know, it wasn't great. And yet, still, like for the years that we worked together and had so much fun and like just had a bunch of good days making great work, I still think it was worth it. I don't know if they think it was worth it, but I still do. And obviously, there's different levels of friendship. So you don't have to like sit around telling stories about when you got drunk in your 20s and all your deepest, darkest secrets. You know, like there can be a line there. But when I think about my definition of friendship, is do I like the person? Do I know them? Do I spend time with them? Do I want to spend time with them? Would I help them if they needed me? Do I generally feel

Make Work Fun On Purpose

SPEAKER_00 25:00

happy when they're around, if they're around? That's it. That's plenty in terms of a friendship to me.

Paul Etchison 25:06

So what I hear you saying is it doesn't matter how we do it, but we should be friends. To some extent, it doesn't require outside of work. But we should. I mean, I think that's the kind of whole synopsis of this interview is that it's worth being intentional about these, the soft skills, the relationships, making people feel seen. Let's come back to like, you know, having fun at work. Like if I can give if you give practice owners something tactical, they're like, my work's not fun. Dentistry sucks. Like everything sucks about it. But I want it to be fun, what should I do first?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Oh. All right. So there's sort of a mindset thing and then maybe some tactical things. So the mindset thing is if you yourself don't take yourself too seriously, are kind of fun to hang around, that goes a long way. If the leader is kind of fun, then the company is kind of fun in that way. So the first thing is a mindset of I believe this, it's worth having fun at work, that maybe I don't love all parts of my job, but the ones that I do like, I'm gonna try and appreciate those parts. Like, so in addition to a mindset of it's okay to have fun at work. And frankly, if you're the boss, people need your permission to feel that. Because the default in any organization is we're here for business or we're here for serious purposes, or we're, you know, we're here for healthcare. So, unless the boss is fun, people will generally not feel permission to have fun. So if they see you having fun, if you are laughing, that's a good start. Now, if you need some practical things to do, I wrote a Substack article called 20 Short Rules for Better Days at Work. And I'll give you some of these. One of them, we often say happy Friday, but I would say, you know what, say happy Monday, happy Tuesday, happy Wednesday, happy Thursday. If you're alive and it's a day, it's a happy day. Small adjustments in the language we use can go a long way to acknowledging that every day is worth having a bit of fun. I do love a bit of mischief. If you have a bit of a prankster gene in your body, like my husband does, it's very annoying sometimes. You lean into that, you know. Maybe you decide we're gonna rearrange the furniture for no apparent reason. You know, maybe if you're giving a presentation, you use Comic Sans font and everyone sort of like twitches and just like, oh my God, my eyes, right? Like anything that's like it doesn't matter and it's it's just for kicks. Another one I like play music that came out the year you turned 18. This is a fun one because I think it sort of defangs ageism in the workplace. Like, oh my God, I was in middle school when that came out, or like, oh, I was I had two kids when that came out. Music can sometimes get us going and get us into a better mood faster than we can think ourselves there. And nothing gets you going faster than your teenage music, I am convinced. A few others compliments.

Paul Etchison 27:58

I thought it was just my teenage music because they made music. It was good back then. They didn't just don't make it like that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Everybody thinks that. Yeah.

Paul Etchison 28:06

I know.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

You can try at least um to yourself, make today's success metric, Minutes Laughing. If that was your metric for success in a day, what would you do? So uh very simply, I used to have a project manager on our team that would she had a book of dad jokes and she would read one every day. You could read one at the top of the hour. So there are some of these like sillier things that you can do just to provide a sense of levity. But really, the goal is how can we start to elevate the value of our own experience at work? And the true answer is not everybody will love a dad joke, but everyone does want to feel like their days matter. And so often at work, we feel like our days are just input to some outcome or output. Like I'm here for the patients, and that's all well and good. Of course you are. But also you're here because this is how you're spending your life. And so if you ask the questions, what do I think would be fun today? Then, you know, I do sometimes give the example like if you have expense reports to do, I don't know if that's such a thing in the dental world, like you could do that hunched over a desk, or you could do that with a latte at the park, right? Like either way they get done, but one is way more fun. You just sort of have to give yourself permission that sitting in a park with a latte is work, right? Like where normally we would be like, oh no, no, no, no. Sitting in fluorescent lighting is work, right? So pose the question to your team. I think that's the first place to start. What would be fun?

Paul Etchison 29:36

Yes, if we want a fun organization, we have to be fun ourselves. We have to act fun. And I think in your book you said, are you a good hang? And that is actually, that is actually, I've asked my daughter that, my 14-year-old. I said, you know, she's saying some things with friends. I said, you know what, Briella, do you think you're a good hang? And she's like, What? And I'm just like, I'm like, do you like laugh at people's jokes? Are you fun to be around? She's like, Yeah, I think so. I'm like, well, sometimes we need to try harder to be more fun. Let a little bit more of our personality out there and not be so reserved. But I totally agree because I've worked with a lot of dental offices, and you're you're right. It's when the leader is a really good time to be around the organization, tends to follow suit. Your priority in your area, I mean, you're there's probably so much more that you bring to these organizations than just the fun dimension. But can you think of an organization you worked with where that was just a primary focus where it was just that fun dimension was able to transform the way they did things?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Well, actually, I can cite one who hasn't been a client, but I just went to a dinner they hosted this week, uh, a company called Mentimeter. If you don't know them, they're a Swedish company and they make software that's sort of like surveys and interactive tools so you can get employee feedback in real time. Anyway, I was so impressed by them. So they have a woman there named Lisa, who I will shout out, whose job is everything from like what should the office look like to like what should the bathrooms look like so that they're fun, to the whole company went and worked from another country for a couple weeks in the past. And like, how do you make that? Like, there was such an emphasis on the experience of the people in their office. She said they actually don't have the company's name or like brand all around the office. The company is designed to feel like you're going to work at a friend's house. Anyway, I was so impressed by their dinner as well. Everything was so beautifully curated and the little note cards, everything was so thoughtful. And what it really spoke to is they were definitely a good hang and really fun. But one of the ways that they got there was through their level of extreme thoughtfulness and care. And sometimes that is a good place to start, in addition to like the dad jokes. So, how this might relate to dental practices is if you notice everybody's storing their own creamer in the refrigerator because that's how they make their coffee in the morning. I don't know, maybe you get like a fancy frothing machine and say, like, hey, here's an investment. I know everybody's like sort of solving this themselves. I just thought it'd be nice if we had frothed milk in the morning. So, what are the things that you can do to demonstrate care or demonstrate that the investment in people's joy is worth it? There's no milk frother that's going to improve your bottom line, but it is gonna improve the quality of people's days every day. And that sort of thoughtfulness is also a really great place to start.

Paul Etchison 32:36

Yeah, I'd love to share this story with you because it came directly from it was inspired by your book. And we had a full, we had a full-day meeting. And what we do for a full day meeting is it's about four or five hours of just talking, training, breakouts, and things like that. And then I pay everybody to go do something fun. I pay them, I don't want it to be optional. I say you have to be, it is mandated, but I pay you. We don't make people go to the things that aren't mandated, but we don't pay them for those either, but I pay them for that. And what we had talked about is we did one of those Slido presentations where it's like people can do with their phone. And I asked everybody, everybody give three examples of what's really fun at work. And, you know, 30 plus people, we all got it in there. And then we said three examples of things that are not fun. And what was interesting to me is that everybody kind of wants the same things. Everybody has fun with their coworkers when we're relaxing, when we're laughing, when we're finding out about what's going on in

User Manuals And Better Team Bonds

Paul Etchison 33:30

each other's lives. I mean, there was a few, like when we really hit it out of the park with the patient, but most of it was relational. But then what was interesting to me is we went through all of the different things that were not fun. And it was always like an upset patient. Um, it was always like not meeting somebody's expectations to some extent, which always seemed to come down to someone muffing the step along the way, and then somebody else down the line taking the heat for it. It was a really powerful exercise to do. But, you know, that was me looking at it from just purely procedural systems and following the systems. And I wonder if there wasn't a way for me to bring more of the softer things into it. I'd be curious. I guess my question for you I mean, would there be anything else you would add to that that would bring more of that, I guess, personal element and not so much this is what happens when we don't do our jobs? Because that's where it kind of went when we went what's not fun. Yeah. We championed the what is fun, but then what not what fun was like, well, when we don't do our jobs right, we don't have fun.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Right. That makes sense. If anything, maybe the follow-up question is what could others on the team have done to make that situation a bit better, a bit less painful. Because of course, everybody's gonna have times when the something happens in the work that doesn't go well or somebody's upset. Like it's just a part of it, right? Like it's impossible to have business without that. And I think the question is who do you want next to you? And how do you want them to help you when those things are going wrong? So maybe the follow-up question there, like a patient was mad, or the question could be like in the future, what should we do? Maybe at the end of the day, we have a team huddle just to say, this is how this made us feel to acknowledge that we're in it together. Etsy used to have this practice, maybe they still do, called the blameless post-mortem, where it takes a lot of psychological safety work, but they go over what went wrong in some code or something like that. But it's it's deliberately blameless. It's like, hey, we're just like trying to figure out what happened here so that we can, if there's anything we should do differently, we'll do it.

Paul Etchison 35:46

So if listeners are listening, they're like, hey, I'm gonna pick up this book. I want more Brie stuff, how do they get more Brie stuff?

SPEAKER_00 35:53

That's fun. Well, yes, you can buy the book and also subscribe to my Substack. Best place to go is my website, BrieGroff.com. So B-R-E-E-G-R-O-F-F dot com. And then from there, you can uh do all the things. Find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. You can also get the book just wherever books are sold. Your bookshop, Amazon, brick and mortar near you can order it. Um, and I hope that you do.

Paul Etchison 36:21

Thank you so much, Bree. I really appreciate your book. I appreciate your ideas, and I can't wait to read some more of your articles and stuff like that. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to spend with me and the listeners. It's been a true pleasure, and I I can't thank you enough. And and I would love for you just to truly take in your heart that you have affected the way that I lead my organization and the way that I would treat my clients and teach them how to lead theirs.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Well, that means the world to me. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on.

Paul Etchison 36:51

So, one of the things that I loved about this conversation is that it really gives us permission to think about work differently. Because at dental practice, I mean, it can be productive, it can be profitable, it can be clinically excellent, and it also at the same time can still be a place where people actually enjoy showing up. And I really believe that doesn't happen by accident. It happens when the leaders pay attention. It happens when we, as the leaders, call those wins, and it happens when we notice when our teams and the people on our team are struggling. And like we talked about in this episode, it really happens when we stop treating fun like it's a separate thing from performance. So here's what I want you to remember from this interview that we just listened to is first, your team wants to feel seen, not just managed. Second, calling the wins matter. We don't do it enough. When something goes well, just say it, point it out, acknowledge it. Don't assume that everyone else already feels it. You are the leader, you should be calling those wins. And third, fun does not mean that you have to force games and goofy hats and all these dumb corporate team building things that nobody wants to do. Sometimes it's as simple as asking your team what would make this place more enjoyable. And finally, the way that people feel at work affects the way they show up for your patients. So if you want a better culture, start there. Pay attention, ask better questions, celebrate what is working. And remember that work does not have to feel heavy to be meaningful. And if you want help building a stronger culture, creating better systems at your practice, or making your business a place where both your team and your business can thrive, head over to dentalpracticeheroes.com/slash strategy. Schedule a free strategy call with me. I'm happy to talk you through it, give you some ideas, and let you know if I think we can help you at Dental Practice Heroes. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while and you've been getting something out of it, please take the time to leave a five-star review. It is one of the best ways to support the show. We really appreciate you. Thank you so much for listening, and you have a great week.